Comments on: Red One Rentals Impending Crash http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/ Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:12:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Justin Evans http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-1338 Justin Evans Tue, 02 Feb 2010 01:45:56 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-1338 The lesson here is simple. Whenever supply outstrips demand a collapse in pricing will ensue. The Red One is my favorite camera. I love it. However, I was making an argument based on principles of economics and most of those who countered me were making arguments based on emotions. Do not buy a Red One. Rent it from someone who didn't listen to me and will now give the body to you "for free" if you rent their accessories and lenses. My guess is you can get a fully loaded Red One package for about 3K for a six week shoot. The lesson here is simple. Whenever supply outstrips demand a collapse in pricing will ensue. The Red One is my favorite camera. I love it. However, I was making an argument based on principles of economics and most of those who countered me were making arguments based on emotions. Do not buy a Red One. Rent it from someone who didn’t listen to me and will now give the body to you “for free” if you rent their accessories and lenses. My guess is you can get a fully loaded Red One package for about 3K for a six week shoot.

]]> By: Justin Evans http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-1337 Justin Evans Tue, 02 Feb 2010 01:32:13 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-1337 Well...it's been a year and Indie Rentals is offering Red One bodies for free. I'm fairly certain this confirms my predictions from a year ago. Well…it’s been a year and Indie Rentals is offering Red One bodies for free. I’m fairly certain this confirms my predictions from a year ago.

]]> By: Dave http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-662 Dave Fri, 08 May 2009 18:02:44 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-662 Of course the Red One was made to empower owners. They made that clear from the beginning. "Impending crash", though? It may draw attention to a headline, but I very much doubt we will see any "crash". There's competition for whatever you're renting and I don't see that the Red One is in so worse a position than the much larger number (and variety!) of HD cameras... and they still manage to rent. Maybe it would take two years to pay back a Red, but how long does it normally take to pay back a similary-sized investment? Or a high-end HD camera? How is it going to look for a rental house that doesn't offer a Red? And people are still going to want lenses and many other options that can make the package very expensive to buy. Even if you don't think so, lenses can still be a big issue and a big cost item for people. Sometimes the right lenses are the key part of a deal. And if you invest some time in it (as you apparently did for your pricing of a Red rental package) you can easily get a 35mm camera body for under $10k. The Red One isn't as expensive as buying a film solution, sure, but it's still a big investment. The fact is that not everyone that is going to use a Red is going to buy it. Many people don't want to invest all that money in a complete kit and then have to maintain everything (lenses, camera, media, etc.) Red rentals aren't going to make a rental house rich overnight, but there is still a business out there. Of course the Red One was made to empower owners. They made that clear from the beginning. “Impending crash”, though? It may draw attention to a headline, but I very much doubt we will see any “crash”.

There’s competition for whatever you’re renting and I don’t see that the Red One is in so worse a position than the much larger number (and variety!) of HD cameras… and they still manage to rent.

Maybe it would take two years to pay back a Red, but how long does it normally take to pay back a similary-sized investment? Or a high-end HD camera? How is it going to look for a rental house that doesn’t offer a Red? And people are still going to want lenses and many other options that can make the package very expensive to buy.

Even if you don’t think so, lenses can still be a big issue and a big cost item for people. Sometimes the right lenses are the key part of a deal. And if you invest some time in it (as you apparently did for your pricing of a Red rental package) you can easily get a 35mm camera body for under $10k. The Red One isn’t as expensive as buying a film solution, sure, but it’s still a big investment.

The fact is that not everyone that is going to use a Red is going to buy it. Many people don’t want to invest all that money in a complete kit and then have to maintain everything (lenses, camera, media, etc.)

Red rentals aren’t going to make a rental house rich overnight, but there is still a business out there.

]]> By: Jerry Hofmann http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-391 Jerry Hofmann Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:40:11 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-391 Um... I think the market bought RED in droves because of it's ability to give us images that compete with film at a price point less than higher end video. To think that it's ONLY being used for feature work simply isn't the case. It's being used for everything that goes into post and is traditionally shot single camera, except by the folks shooting events... That's a lot of shoots... The post workflow isn't well understood, and I for one am going to do something about that. An affordable DVD is coming from the COW done by me on the workflow in FCS. That said, time will make a difference in the acceptance of the format by more producers of everything. From my perspective, RED is proper for everything but live sports, news, and event videographers (though that will begin to change too I'll wager)... The images it makes are wonderful, and they are at a price point just about all pro shoots can afford... I can recall days not all that long ago where top flight video camera setup would run $600-800/day... REDs can be had for less than that... Pure economics will dictate before long that 35mm film acquisition is dead, and with the price point achieved by RED, Varicam, HDCAM, and other higher end video formats are also on their way out with projects that will be run through post... If the consumer can't see the difference, there is no difference. If the DP's out there will learn the camera, it's over folks... Notable directors/producers are flocking to RED in droves. Heck, Peter Jackson bought 10 RED ones... Soderberg will no longer shoot film either... just a couple of the many... This hype from the high end drives the lower end of our industry to shoot the format more and more. It's a matter of education. Every shoot whether it's film, video, or RED should be processed with Color correction... so in reality, shooting RED really isn't a ton tougher than shooting P2 iMHO. Um… I think the market bought RED in droves because of it’s ability to give us images that compete with film at a price point less than higher end video. To think that it’s ONLY being used for feature work simply isn’t the case. It’s being used for everything that goes into post and is traditionally shot single camera, except by the folks shooting events… That’s a lot of shoots… The post workflow isn’t well understood, and I for one am going to do something about that. An affordable DVD is coming from the COW done by me on the workflow in FCS.

That said, time will make a difference in the acceptance of the format by more producers of everything. From my perspective, RED is proper for everything but live sports, news, and event videographers (though that will begin to change too I’ll wager)… The images it makes are wonderful, and they are at a price point just about all pro shoots can afford… I can recall days not all that long ago where top flight video camera setup would run $600-800/day… REDs can be had for less than that…

Pure economics will dictate before long that 35mm film acquisition is dead, and with the price point achieved by RED, Varicam, HDCAM, and other higher end video formats are also on their way out with projects that will be run through post… If the consumer can’t see the difference, there is no difference. If the DP’s out there will learn the camera, it’s over folks… Notable directors/producers are flocking to RED in droves. Heck, Peter Jackson bought 10 RED ones… Soderberg will no longer shoot film either… just a couple of the many… This hype from the high end drives the lower end of our industry to shoot the format more and more. It’s a matter of education. Every shoot whether it’s film, video, or RED should be processed with Color correction… so in reality, shooting RED really isn’t a ton tougher than shooting P2 iMHO.

]]> By: Justin Evans http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-375 Justin Evans Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:04:27 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-375 Jack, the rates we were quoted was for the entire 6 week shoot. And, those rates would be even lower now. I believe I could get a basic Red One package for about $6,500.00 for a six week shoot. Jack, the rates we were quoted was for the entire 6 week shoot. And, those rates would be even lower now. I believe I could get a basic Red One package for about $6,500.00 for a six week shoot.

]]> By: Jack Heape http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-343 Jack Heape Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:52:00 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-343 Question.Were the rates you quoted in the article "the price was now $8,300.00 and $8,500.00 from the two companies" per week for one camera, or for the whole 6 week shoot? Thanks for all the great info you are putting out. Question.Were the rates you quoted in the article “the price was now $8,300.00 and $8,500.00 from the two companies” per week for one camera, or for the whole 6 week shoot?
Thanks for all the great info you are putting out.

]]> By: RED economics | Twenty398 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-338 RED economics | Twenty398 Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:37:54 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-338 [...] With posts like these popping up??http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25850??http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/??http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25858??It’s time to think seriously [...] [...] With posts like these popping up??http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25850??http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/??http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25858??It’s time to think seriously [...]

]]> By: Andrea D'Elena http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-286 Andrea D'Elena Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:26:36 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-286 As well, the loose credit industry that supported so many camera purchases has evaporated. Enter the Scarlett of course but perhaps things aren't as bad as they seem. As well, the loose credit industry that supported so many camera purchases has evaporated. Enter the Scarlett of course but perhaps things aren’t as bad as they seem.

]]> By: Derek gross http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-283 Derek gross Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:41:32 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-283 I'm a gaffer in NYC and I think your numbers are a little off. All you seem concerned with are features. What about the thousands of industrials, commercials, infomercials, music videos and tv shows being shot every year. While I'm not a fan of the red, I think that there is a growing market for it, though it might not be there yet. Let's not forget that this camera was sold as a wunderkamera that can bring more films to people, cheaper. Derek Sorry about any typos. Sent from my iPhone. On a set shooting 35mm I’m a gaffer in NYC and I think your numbers are a little off. All you seem concerned with are features. What about the thousands of industrials, commercials, infomercials, music videos and tv shows being shot every year. While I’m not a fan of the red, I think that there is a growing market for it, though it might not be there yet. Let’s not forget that this camera was sold as a wunderkamera that can bring more films to people, cheaper.

Derek

Sorry about any typos. Sent from my iPhone. On a set shooting 35mm

]]> By: Scott Simmons http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-278 Scott Simmons Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:37:23 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-278 When you see people shooting behind the scenes of a music video or feature using the exact same camera the project  is using for acquisition it's a mixture of sad and happy knowing that things are indeed changing. And maybe not for the better. When you see people shooting behind the scenes of a music video or feature using the exact same camera the project  is using for acquisition it’s a mixture of sad and happy knowing that things are indeed changing. And maybe not for the better.

]]> By: Phillip Gibb http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-273 Phillip Gibb Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:26:46 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-273 I guess it all comes down to demand. No sense in charging high amounts if demand is dying. Probably better to charge less for more rentals? For a higher turnover. Within reason of course.I don't own a RED One; can't afford it (not even to rent for a day), but I dream of using one almost everyday and I am amp'd about what is happening currenly with EPIC and SCARLET. Because of that I read a lot about RED; what is happening and what people think, and I can only see a greater demand for RED as time goes by.Ok, current RED Ones might loose their luster when the new ones come out and the whole Brain thing will mean that some people might only be renting out Brains. But I thing that RED Ones will still have a life for about 5 years - for even 4K is over the top for most indie filmmakers at the moment. I guess it all comes down to demand. No sense in charging high amounts if demand is dying. Probably better to charge less for more rentals? For a higher turnover. Within reason of course.I don’t own a RED One; can’t afford it (not even to rent for a day), but I dream of using one almost everyday and I am amp’d about what is happening currenly with EPIC and SCARLET. Because of that I read a lot about RED; what is happening and what people think, and I can only see a greater demand for RED as time goes by.Ok, current RED Ones might loose their luster when the new ones come out and the whole Brain thing will mean that some people might only be renting out Brains. But I thing that RED Ones will still have a life for about 5 years - for even 4K is over the top for most indie filmmakers at the moment.

]]> By: Christopher Lines http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-271 Christopher Lines Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:04:24 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-271 Hmm! Interesting article/story. As my producing partner and I are looking into the possibility of purchasing a RED ONE, your experience is helpful in our decision making process. To P.Sensor.  I would love to be able to shoot on film but financially I don't see it to be that simple.   Hmm! Interesting article/story. As my producing partner and I are looking into the possibility of purchasing a RED ONE, your experience is helpful in our decision making process. To P.Sensor.  I would love to be able to shoot on film but financially I don’t see it to be that simple.  

]]> By: P. Sensor http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-268 P. Sensor Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:14:55 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-268 I think you're absolutely right, total oversaturation. I bought a Red Camera because I was tired of having to upgrade cameras on my P+S adapter. I thought this would be a cameraI might not have to replace for 2 maybe 3 years, seemed logical. And I have a relationship with a rental house that took it in so when I'm not using it - it may make some money as a return on my investment. So far, It's only been 10 weeks, but my first several jobs since buying it did not want to use the camera, they wanted the one I just sold. Either they didn't understand it or their editor didn't want to deal with it. So, it's been at the rental house collecting dust like my Aaton super 16. I know I will eventually get it out on some commercials - if that biz ever returns. Meanwhile , I'm investing again, this time in a short project just to get a workout on my Red, so I'll have something to show and tell perspective clients. In a lot of ways I miss the film shooting, when everyone knew what had to happen in post. What was so difficult about that ? Shoot, Process, Xfer/ CC. Edit.Simple. I think you’re absolutely right, total oversaturation. I bought a Red Camera because I was tired of having to upgrade cameras on my P+S adapter. I thought this would be a cameraI might not have to replace for 2 maybe 3 years, seemed logical. And I have a relationship with a rental house that took it in so when I’m not using it - it may make some money as a return on my investment. So far, It’s only been 10 weeks, but my first several jobs since buying it did not want to use the camera, they wanted the one I just sold. Either they didn’t understand it or their editor didn’t want to deal with it. So, it’s been at the rental house collecting dust like my Aaton super 16. I know I will eventually get it out on some commercials - if that biz ever returns. Meanwhile , I’m investing again, this time in a short project just to get a workout on my Red, so I’ll have something to show and tell perspective clients. In a lot of ways I miss the film shooting, when everyone knew what had to happen in post. What was so difficult about that ? Shoot, Process, Xfer/ CC. Edit.Simple.

]]> By: Film School http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-266 Film School Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:53:00 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-266 Don't forget that your local film school will be happy to take your overstocked camera for a nice tax writeoff.  I personally see the Red One and Scarlet making it into many nooks and crannies (government/education/churches) where only HD was being considered.Rock On! Don’t forget that your local film school will be happy to take your overstocked camera for a nice tax writeoff.  I personally see the Red One and Scarlet making it into many nooks and crannies (government/education/churches) where only HD was being considered.Rock On!

]]> By: Creetic http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-263 Creetic Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:50:31 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-263 I think the article is a mixture of reality and wishful thinking. The thing is that you, as a filmmaker still want to use a Red One: add to that that after the Scarlett/Epic announcement (provoked in part by the Canon still camera) not many people will be buying  Red One.   So we have a fixed pool of cameras for a year or so and many people wanting to work with the cam. Anyway, I don't really now where you get the 30.000 fugure: with zeiss standards, tripod, matte box, follow focus, monitoring, etc it is more around 50.000 $.   So, it may have been late for you, but anyone getting the cam in april or june has done good business and will continue to get money from their pack (less of it, of course) in the following months. I think the article is a mixture of reality and wishful thinking. The thing is that you, as a filmmaker still want to use a Red One: add to that that after the Scarlett/Epic announcement (provoked in part by the Canon still camera) not many people will be buying  Red One.
 
So we have a fixed pool of cameras for a year or so and many people wanting to work with the cam. Anyway, I don’t really now where you get the 30.000 fugure: with zeiss standards, tripod, matte box, follow focus, monitoring, etc it is more around 50.000 $.
 
So, it may have been late for you, but anyone getting the cam in april or june has done good business and will continue to get money from their pack (less of it, of course) in the following months.

]]> By: Filmmaker http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/2008/12/red-one-rentals-impending-crash/#comment-262 Filmmaker Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:48:07 +0000 http://newbreed.workbookproject.com/?p=280#comment-262 You that 5000 RED Cameras is the number for total worldwide shipments, right? You that 5000 RED Cameras is the number for total worldwide shipments, right?

]]>